Pod Like a Pro: Episode 3

Pod Like a Pro – Episode Three

Podcast Production Values

Sparky 0:22

Welcome to Pod Like A Pro. I'm Sparky and every week is Ben Anderson, the CEO, chairman, master and ruler of Sound Rebel. Now we're talking you through ways to make a podcast like a pro. And on this episode, our main focus is podcast production values.

Ben Anderson 0:42

Well, I think my main focus is ordering some new business cards. I like the title you’ve given me there Sparky!

Sparky 0:48

Just what you need to know is he's in charge. This is the man that wants to raise your podcast to a high level. And hopefully by listening to the end of this episode, you might know a few new ways to bring your podcasts up to professional standard.

Ben Anderson 1:01

Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one production value. So Sparky, you know that I love a stat. And there's a new stat that's come out this week, actually, from Ofcom. Ofcom are the governing body for kind of broadcast and radio, etc, in the UK. And they've done a survey on podcasts, and loads of information that, you know, quarter of people in the UK are now listening to podcasts every single week.

Sparky 1:24

That's great news. That's great news, if you want to start a podcast.

Ben Anderson 1:27

It is! But the stat that jumped out for me for this episode was that 94% of people said that the quality of a podcast is important to them, with just 1% of people saying it's not important to them. The reason this jumped out to me is because podcasting has changed. It's been around for about 20 years, it's now coming into its golden age. But beforehand, you'd get a lot of kind of hobby podcasters - hobbyist podcasters, who would record on whatever they could find, not necessarily edit it, put it out there to the world. Unfortunately, things have changed. And it's because people like me and you Sparky, getting into the podcast industry. You know, we've we were brought up in the radio industry, both me and you've worked for commercial radio stations for a really long time. And obviously, we're producing broadcast quality content every single day, we've now brought that to the podcast space. What we produce is broadcast quality content. Overall production values across the board are being raised. And it is important to a listener. Like if I listen to a podcast - and I know that I'm coming at this from an audio producer perspective, so I'm not the kind of normal podcast listener…

Sparky 2:33

And an ex-programme director of a radio station. So gonna be coming in with strong opinions all the time.

Ben Anderson 2:38

But if I listened to it and the mic quality's bad, or there's some, obviously stock music that they've used for the podcast, or just something that doesn't feel very professional. Right from the from the off, I’m going: this hasn't been properly done. And it's not just about the whole listening experience. It's that first impression from the off, I'm like, is this going to be that good if they haven't spent the time and they haven't put the effort in to making the production values high? How much effort they put into the content? And they don't correlate, of course they don't, but it's just a little thing in the listeners head of how professional is this? Do I want to invest my time in this? And when it comes to production values, there are three main things to look at, really, it's the equipment that you're using. It's your music, and it's also why professional voiceover is really useful. And we're joined today by our music producer for sound rebel, Tom. Thanks for coming on. Tom.

Tom Anderson 3:34

Hey guys! Thank you very much for having me. I'm very well how are you boys doing?

Sparky 3:37

Yeah, great, Tom. And we want to pick your brains today on this episode, where we're talking production values, mainly want to get into you know, how you design music, for podcasts individually, why you would choose certain techniques, and maybe why you'd stay away from copyrighted music or things that you can pre-buy – You want to jump into that really mate!

Tom Anderson 3:55

Yeah, cool! I think the copyright one is a really important one, because there's so many traps that you can fall into there because the world of music publishing and copyright and royalties is so complex, that it's almost impossible for someone that's new to it to navigate and have complete certainty that they've got all of the rights that they need in order to be able to put it onto their podcast.

Ben Anderson 4:25

And this is something that Tom feels very passionate about because he is sound rebel’s music producer but also tell me you are a music producer at the world famous Parr Street Studios in Liverpool. Tell us a bit about your background Tom.

Tom Anderson 4:37

Yeah, so I came from a music composition background. I studied music at university in Liverpool, which is when I started going into Parr Street and that was kind of my first real, you know, inside look at the industry and how it works and that sort of thing. It's basically lots of cups of tea and coffee, and lots of rooms with no windows in them - so actually quite similar to the world of radio I would imagine! But then you've got Blossoms in the next room, or I mean, who else is recording at Parr Street? Bieber recorded at Parr Street didn’t he! Coldplay famously their first album!

Tom Anderson 5:11

Yeah, so Coldplay, it's all over their documentary on Amazon. So when I was watching it with my girlfriend, I was getting very, very excited.

Sparky 5:18

I've sat down, I've made a cup of tea on that kettle! That EXACT KETTLE!!

Tom Anderson 5:22

Exactly! And, yeah. So I mean, there's, there's all these amazing artists coming through. I mean, like, at the moment, like you say, Bieber was in a few years ago, that was a bizarre few days. All of a sudden, there was lots of people parking themselves outside the studios and lots of fans screaming, which is not quite the normal day to day! But sort of taking it slightly off topic there. But yeah, there's all sorts of great artists that are coming through there all the time. And I think it's from the musician's point of view. So from the musicians, the bands the producers, I would say, because, like I said, the world of music publishing and royalties is so complex, is that you almost want other people to be getting on with it, because that's a full time job in itself. So you get, you've got a publisher, and a record label. And they take care of all of that. And hopefully, you've got your manager there who's overseeing it all as well. It's one of those where and so from that point of view, that the person that's then looking to use their music and podcasts should be aware of quite how difficult that world can be in terms of navigating getting the rights to use those songs in their podcasts.

Sparky 6:42

Okay, mate, right. So we're talking more on music in a minute, and how you can get some decent music behind your podcast. But I feel like we need to start at base one. And normally, when a lot of people decide they're going to do a podcast, they get in a room, and they just want to hit record. But what equipment, should they be using Tom? Like? Can you just use your MacBook recorder? Or just I just use the microphone on my iPhone? Surely that'll be fine. Right?

Tom Anderson 7:04

Well, I mean, you can if you want to. But I think like you guys said at the beginning, people are looking for quality these days. And so the first thing that I would advise is to look into getting a good condenser microphone. Now you can either go for USB microphone, which is quite common, because it means that you then don't need to get the sound card in the middle, and you still get a really good quality out of it. Or you can go for a condenser microphone, which you could then take and plug into what's called an external sound card or is also sometimes called an audio interface. And you can pick them up for about 100 quid. The quality is slightly better than the USB microphone but if I was saying to people that are just looking to do a podcast, I'd probably say the USB microphone is the way to go.

Ben Anderson 7:55

Right? So let's just break that down in terms of kind of plain English. So basically, a USB microphone is a mic that you plug straight into your laptop.

Tom Anderson 8:03

Straight into the laptop. Good quality. Great.

Ben Anderson 8:06

Or you can get a higher quality mic. Yes. But to power that mic you need the box in the middle essentially.

Tom Anderson 8:13

You need more stuff. Yeah.

Ben Anderson 8:14

Which is your interface.

Tom Anderson 8:14

And it probably costs about twice as much.

Ben Anderson 8:16

Yeah, I think we would always recommend the USB mic, not only because it's a bit cheaper. The quality is really good. Like I'm using - right now - a Rode NT-USB microphone. And it's great. It's also really portable. Like if you if you've got a job where you're on the go, but you want to do a podcast episode every week or whatever. It's so easy to just shove your microphone in your bag. When you've got the kind of bigger microphones, you've got to lug more kit around and it's just a pain. Tom, can you talk to us about condenser microphones? So what does that word mean “condenser”?

Tom Anderson 8:48

So basically, you've got two different types of microphone. There's a condenser, like we've just said, and then there's a dynamic microphone. And to put it simply the condenser microphone, it's got better clarity, but it also picks up the sound in the whole room. A lot more so than a dynamic microphone. So, say for example, the microphones that you see people using on stage, where they've got like the round bit on the end, and the bit that you hold on to that is designed to get rid of all of the background noise because they will be used in noisy spaces.

Ben Anderson 9:25

But because that sounds like you know in terms of recording your podcast, you want clarity on the voice, you don't want the background noise. So why doesn't a dynamic mic work very well for podcast? Why should people always look for the word “condenser” when they're buying their mic?

Tom Anderson 9:38

So part of the reason that you don't want to use a dynamic microphone on a podcast is because in getting rid of some of the background noise and making it more focused on what's right in front of it, is that you then miss out some of that clarity. So, say for example, when I'm speaking to you right now or when you're hearing the other guys on this podcast that are speaking to your, it's almost as if they are there with you. Whereas with a dynamic microphone, it would sound like it was coming through a microphone, if that makes any sense. It's what they use in radio studios. It's what they use in recording studios, if you're recording vocals, and it's because it basically just gets all those extra frequencies that get missed out by a dynamic microphone.

Ben Anderson 10:31

I think we should talk about - cos Sparky, you mentioned about people recording on their phones - and I think that moves us quite nicely on to Tom. I wanted to ask you about environment. What we say to everyone that we work with is that it's a bit like when you listen to the radio, let's say you're listening to Radio Four, you expect the presenter, or the main, says two presenters to be in good quality. If someone calls in to talk about something, you know, that they're calling in. So the listener doesn't mind that they don't sound like they're in perfect quality. So, for example, let's say that you've got a podcast where there's two of you who are on every single week, but you always have a guest on, like we do with a podcast called vagina monopod - which is about gynaecological health - where there’s always a guest on every week, and nine times out of ten, that guest is using a mobile phone to record. What we can do in the post production. It's not gonna be the same as using a proper microphone - always, if you can do, ask your guests to use a mic - but not everyone has a microphone. So actually, you can get a decent sound quality from a mobile phone because we do that in our post-production. But what this moves us on to Tom, is that yes, equipment is important. But you're always talking to our clients about environment as well. Aren't you the room that they're in?

Tom Anderson 11:46

Yes. So it's one of those where you can have the best equipment in the world. But if the room doesn't sound great, then it's going to pick up whatever the sound is in the room. Now, whenever people used to say to me if the room doesn't sound great, I used to think how can a room sound like something? It's a room! Yeah, it doesn't, you know, anyway…

Sparky 12:07

But you're talking in terms of echo and sound reflection, and whether your wife's making a cup of tea in the background whilst you're trying to record a podcast? Like, you've got to think about all of these things when you’re setting up your studio.

Tom Anderson 12:16

Exactly. You're, you're essentially looking for the sound to be as dead as possible. So there's different ways that you can achieve this.

Ben Anderson 12:24

And by dead, you mean, clear and not echoey? Essentially?

Tom 12:29

Yeah, so that the voice, or your voice, is as isolated as possible. There's no kind of like- in fact, I've got a little bit, I've got a little bit of echo in this room right now. Because it's quite a large room, which I've tried to deaden as much as possible. You know, it's impossible to do it completely unless you're in a really high end recording studio. But there's little things and tips that you can do to make it better.

Ben Anderson 12:53

Tom's just got a huge house with lots of lovely large rooms, and you don’t have a small enough space do you Tom?

Sparky 12:58

That’s what working at Parr Studios does for you guys. Gets you a nice Manor with a non dead room. But Tom, so really, you are just saying though, think about these things. And you would think these are pretty obvious things to think of. But there are podcasts out there where there is a lot of undead rooms, do we call them? What's the opposite of “dead room”?!

Ben Anderson 13:18

Alive rooms!!

Tom Anderson 13:19

Alive rooms! Echoey rooms! Yeah. So firstly, the things to think about are say, Have you got a room with carpet, that's, that's a really good one. Because instantly, if you think about: the sound is coming out of your mouth, and then right now I've got a table not far away from me, so the sound will be bouncing off that table, it will then be going over towards the wall, it will then be going from the wall say… but if you think about it as being a straight line -or I mean, it's actually like a slightly curvy line -but in terms of its direction, it's going like a straight line bouncing around the room, and you want to stop it bouncing as much as possible. So hard surfaces help that sound bounce around. Whereas, say surfaces like carpet, or a rug or a blanket - So often I say to people put a blanket down on the desk to help the sound, you know, lots of little home DIY type things, we don't have to spend a fortune - then that can make a really big difference because it stops that sound or that, you know, the sound wave that your mouth is producing from going all over the place.

Ben Anderson 14:30

So even like closing the curtains, for example, you taken away the bouncy glass and you're giving it a nice soft curtain instead. I mean, the way to look at it, I always say to clients, because we're all recording from home these days, so many of and this is probably going to of course we're gonna start getting back to work and is gonna be more people in our office places etc. But it does feel like we're all gonna be at home a lot more. Even if you've got the choice of recording in the kitchen or you got the choice of recording in the living room record in the living room because naturally you’ve got cushions, you've got curtains, you've got sofas, you've got carpet rug, soft things around kitchens, you've got bouncy cupboards, you've got probably hard floors, potentially big windows Bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce. So it's amazing how much of a difference it makes, isn't it Tom? Just taking the same kit and moving it to a deader room.

Tom Anderson 15:21

Yeah, it's just about filling that room full of stuff. Whatever. If you look around a room, and you think, oh, no, this room is a bit cluttered, I probably shouldn't do podcasts in here… Do podcasts in there! Because that room will probably be the room where your voice is getting absorbed the most by the objects around it. Ideally, like I said, before, you know, soft furnishings things like curtains will absorb sound, but just ideally, stuff so that there's not space for that sound to bounce around the room.

Sparky 15:51

That's another good advert for the USB microphone as well that which means your portable you can move to those rooms is like I feel like a lot of people might think, Oh, I've recorded in the kitchen because I'm out of the way like the other half swatch. You're married at first sight in the lounge, you know, but actually you can move around and find that right space. And that's another reason why a USB mics going to help you. Cos you haven't got a lug load of kit with you.

Ben Anderson 16:11

Y’know it sounds stupid. But I have got a friend who has a show, who’s a newsreader on a huge national radio station. Big well-known presenter. And she's been for the last year reading the news from the cupboard under the stairs, because she moved all the stuff out. Yeah, so moved all the stuff out the bikes, whatever you keep it in a cupboard under the stairs and filled it with cushions and little little desk, little seat. And a national radio station’s news has been coming from a cupboard under the stairs.

Sparky 16:43

Hey look, don't tell the senior management of them places! The budgets will definitely get cut! I would just get a couple of cushions!!

Ben Anderson 16:49

It sounds amazing. It really does sound amazing. And it is just because she's in a small space surrounded by soft stuff. And it works.

Sparky 16:57

And if you’re in the market of having a professional sounding podcast, and you want to sound as good as the news going national, then you these are the things you need to be thinking of. And that's why it's great to have you on on this episode, Tom, anything else that you would suggest in our setup that we need to be thinking about?

Tom Anderson 17:11

I don't think so I think it's pretty much just getting like you hit the nail on the head there with small rooms soft stuff. Good mic…

Sparky 17:16

Boom!

Tom Anderson 17:17

One final thing on equipment before we move on, is that a really common mistake that people make when first using microphones is for recording is that they can record themselves too loud. Now, you can always make a quiet sound louder. But the problem is, is that if it gets recorded too loud, and you'll often see in your recording software, wherever you're using, it will then start hitting this red bit on the metre. So you've got when I'm talking now like I can see it in front of me. The metre is jumping up and down and it's green. Whereas if you then start going too far, and it's too loud, and you've got the knob turned, you know, up too far, it'll start going red and all of a sudden you'll start hearing this crackly, distortion-y sound on your voice when you listen back to the podcast. So that's just something to be wary of as well.

Ben Anderson 18:10

Yeah, that's interesting, actually, what are you currently using as your software on your computer? Because obviously, the mic is the hardware but what software are you recording on Tom?

Tom Anderson 18:17

I use software called Pro Tools, which is more commonly used for music. But then I'd say the most common software for podcasting is probably Adobe Audition.

Ben Anderson 18:30

I'm using audition. Is that where you’re on Sparky?

Sparky 18:32

I’m using Adobe Audition? Yeah, I pay the monthly subscription fee for it. I feel like, it's real weird point in my life. Yeah, like I don't know where I'm a child that was born in the 80s. I felt like subscribing to something and paying for it every month, rather than just like paying a one-off fee and then just getting to own it. But absolutely doing it that way you get all the updates, all of you know, it's definitely again, if you want to take this seriously, it's another outlay that you need to consider to make yourself more professional.

Ben Anderson 18:59

Yeah, it's 20 quid a month, like I'd always recommend downloading Adobe Audition. A lot of businesses already have the Adobe full kind of Creative Suite. It's just an audition, which is their audio software hasn't been downloaded as a standard. But if you if your company pays for the full if you're using Adobe Photoshop, Premiere, whatever, you've probably got audition as part of that package. So have a look. The other good thing about using the Rode NT-USB mic that I'm using now - I actually have quite a lot of people who like recording into their phone. So we've got a we've recommended it's called a camera adapter, but it works for the microphone as well. Because right now I've got you guys on Zoom and I quickly flick my screen and see Yep, I'm still recording on audition, that's fine. Some people, especially if they're just starting out, like to be able to see their waveform the entire time. So I've got quite a few clients who basically plug their Rode NT-USB mic straight into their phone, they use Zoom on a laptop or a tablet, but then they use their phone as a recorder. And actually it works really well. Voice memos on the iPhone, and it's called voice recorder on Android. That's another option. But, you know, work with us. And we will run through all of that stuff and kind of the finer detail before we jump into the first episode. And if you haven't been taking notes, then just go to sound rebel.co.uk/equipment, and you can see our recommendations there.

Sparky 20:27

So let's move on to the next thing we're going to focus on this episode then, which is voiceover. Ben, what should we be thinking about when using professional voiceover to make our podcast sound better?

Ben Anderson 20:37

Before we started recording this, me and you were having a bit of a chat through this one, because using a professional voiceover absolutely is not a necessity to start a podcast. We use professional voiceovers on pretty much everything that we produce. And it doesn't have to be much, but they usually come in at the end of a podcast. So you've had a lovely time talking with your co-host or a guest. “Haha, thanks so much for coming. Goodbye.” And then comes in “Thank you for listening to the [insert name here] podcast, please subscribe to this podcast. So you never miss an episode” etc. Now, it's not a huge amount of audio, it's about 30 seconds on the end. But by having it there, it's suddenly again, it's that thing where it gives the listener they go. This is professional, this has been thought about. It's not a major part of the production. But it certainly lifts the overall production values. Because having another voice in there having a professional because it's not easy, you know, voice actors are paid really good money. It's not as easy as just reading, reading a script. You know, it is something that these guys have spent years and years crafting and honing. But it just lifts the overall production, essentially. And that's why you should have one, it lifts the overall production values.

And as well, some people that just don't like doing it, some people hate reading scripts, like if you're hosting a podcast, it's all the way through. It's been lovely, natural, conversational. And then suddenly, you've got to do a bit at the end. And you have got to do it. It is great to remind people that what they just listened to, that they should subscribe that they can follow you on social media, or join an email newsletter or visit the website or whatever it is that you want the listener to do after they finish listening to that podcast episode. It's good to give them a reminder at the end because they're coming to the end. And what are you going to do next after this? Follow me on… , follow our business, join an email news, whatever it is, it's good to tell them but some people feel a bit awkward doing it. So having that professional voice over just takes care of all the nuts and bolts and makes it sound great. Should we do our voice over voices Sparky?

Sparky 22:39

Well done depends. Was bank holiday weekend mate so I've had – it’s a bit gravelly this morning but “You should listen and subscribe right now to pod like a pro. Learn how to podcast professionally through the wonders of Benjamin Anderson and Sound Rebel”.

Ben Anderson 22:57

That proves this... It's just it's not as easy as it sounds!

Tom Anderson 23:00

I thought that was outstanding. I'm gonna give that a round of applause!

Sparky 23:03

Thank you Tom, no script either mate, I know! Exactly, that’s 50 pounds there mate!! We are expensive, us Voiceover artists!

Tom, at the start of the podcast, you started really being quite serious about royalties and copyright when it comes to getting your music on your podcast. What's the deal with all that?

Tom Anderson 23:21

Yeah. So with copyright, the thing to always remember is that the person that owns the copyright needs to get paid. And because it's quite a complex process in which to be able to pay them, I would always avoid music that you don't own the licence to. So say for example, you love that new track that you've heard on the radio, and you think this would be the perfect intro to my new podcast, brilliant, but don't use it. Instead, what I would look at doing is getting sending it to someone say like myself if you wanted it bespoke, and saying I'd like something that's similar to this or - if you don't have a song in mind that you would particularly like – is to sound like is giving someone like myself five words that you would like associated with your brand from that music. So say for example, optimistic or enthusiastic or energetic or the all of these sorts of adjectives and, and from that I can get a pretty good idea of what we're creating. Just to quickly to touch upon the copyright thing one last time because it's one of those things, before we move on, where people can be like, “oh, you know, I might be able to get away with it. I might if I just put in 20 seconds here or 20 seconds there blablabla” - I really would highly discourage you from doing it because it can jeopardise the whole podcast. Even four years down the line - you've been doing it, you've built a great audience and you've… - and then all of a sudden the copyright owner of that music can hear that in one episode, and they've got the right to take down the whole thing. So it really isn't worth it going down.

Ben Anderson 25:00

Y’know, there's a case of a podcast in America that we've been going good few years. And like you said Tom, had built a great audience. Somebody from the label was listening to it, as a listener recognised that the copyright music was being used, and they didn't have permission for it. They done about 300 episodes, and they use the music at the beginning and the end. The label decided to start legal action against these guys. It wasn't for using the music once. It was every time they'd used the music. So for 300 episodes, times two - intro and outro – 600 times. It wasn't one time that they were being taken to court for it was 600 times because that's how many times they use the copyright. There's another thing about copyright music, there's a rumour, and I don't know where this is coming from. But if you play less than 30 seconds of it, then that's fine. That's not fine. If you use 10 seconds of a Justin Bieber track, and Justin Bieber or his people find out and they're cross about it. That's enough because you've used something to better your production that you don't own or have been given permission to use. So literally, I can't tell you how much of a minefield copyright music is. So using someone like us and Tom, to create bespoke music for you. Make sure that it's completely created from scratch. You own that because Tom will create it and you're buying the licence for that music to be used. But it's not just about the legals, it's also about the sound of the podcast, and let's kind of take it away from being too serious now…

Sparky 26:44

I mean but that is serious! You’ll get sued! 600 times?! No, but you're right. That is the sound of your podcast, that that that theme is what people will recognise and it'll become your sonic logo. Basically, that is you. That's what people hear that and go, ah, that's so and so podcasts like, that's what you want. So that's why it's also so important.

Ben Anderson 27:01

Yep. So kind of on the creative side of things, Tom, I'd like to talk to you about a couple of examples that you've done for our clients. The first one is the construction index. So it's a magazine, leading magazine for the construction industry, we produce their podcast for them called Reconstruction. Obviously, the music is the first thing you hear when you click Play. So if we're talking about overall production values to hear a professional track, as soon as the listener clicks play, it makes them go “Ah okay, this, this podcast is this is good - they've thought about this, this is professional.” But what's great, what I love about the Reconstruction tune, Tom, that you've made, is that they wanted it to be kind of quite jovial. So Tom started off with the melody line. But then the percussion because it's a construction magazine, it's not your usual drums, it's hammers, wrenches. And it just added - it straightaway gives the character.

Sparky 27:52

The Stomp effect! Like that theatre show Stomp! It actually is! But also, it's actually incorporating sounds that the listeners are likely to be familiar with, like, as the percussion.

Tom Anderson 28:02

That's it, and I absolutely love doing it as well. So taking that as an example, is that firstly, you want it to be instantly identifiable as being a construction based podcast so that someone who's working in that industry listens to it straight away and goes, “Yeah, this is the right one.” And “Oh this is kind of sounding familiar to the sounds that I'm used to hearing within the space that I work in”. So you'll always get percussion in songs like say, for example, like a tambourine or something like that. But instead of using a tambourine, we use, like one of those drills that you get on the road when they're trying to get through the tarmac, and that sort of thing. But then also, I mean, I'm sure that the fellas on the podcast won't mind me saying they're quite cheeky in some way. So then I was trying to think like, right well, how can I kind of make some cheeky sounds who's kind of like some bluesy guitar like kind of “Bi-woa”, do you know what I mean? It's all those sorts of things where you can take the character of the podcast and boil it down into a minute and a half, that then perfectly supplements, what they're all about. And I think it gives a vibe straight away, you know, straight away, this is what this is going to be all about. And that all contributes towards creating this audio identity and audio identity is becoming increasingly important as a marketing tool. I think like you think of all the different brands that are out there that have sonic - you know, say for example, just little melodies or something like that, that you listen to it and go “that’s …”

Ben Anderson 29:33

For some reason my head just went straight to “Mmm Danone”.

Sparky 29:36

Yeah exactly! Ah guys – mine went to “da da da da daa” [McDonalds jingle]. – Ey, ey? Who wants a drive through!?

Tom Anderson 29:45

Yeah there you go, you see and the one I mentioned to you guys before we started recording, which is actually probably more famous than their actual visual logo is “Go Compare, Go Compare”. Do you know what it is? So it's actually a really powerful tool. And also, you might find people after listening to the podcasts and they've listened to that tune that they associate with your brand or your podcast, they'll walk around whistling it, and they're thinking about it for a continuous space of time.

Ben Anderson 30:17

And actually, that's the feedback we get. So we produce a podcast for Truck and Driver magazine. And, I didn't realise this, but apparently truckers, as a group, love country music! And I never knew that before we started working with Chuck and Driver magazine! But their music it starts with the sound of a Foden Truck, which is a classic truck, starting up. So you got the kind of the big kind [imitates engine noise] and then it goes into kinda [imitates a country guitar riff]. And they get the feedback that “I love your music”. “Can we have your music as a as a track?”

Sparky 30:48

As a ringtone on their phone as the trucker’s choice

Ben Anderson 30:51

But it just gives that character like Sparky, we do a podcast called Men Lose Weight together for blokes trying to do a bit better, lose a bit of weight. We haven't done it for last few weeks. And both put on! We really need to bring that back.

Sparky 31:03

Shh! We’ll talk about that on that podcast!! Mate, this is not the space we talk about my weight, Ben!

Ben Anderson 31:12

But we said to Tom, we said we wanted it to be upbeat. It's health and fitness but not done in a serious way. And Tom created the track which kind of sounds like something you'd hear on a kind of fitness DVD. But it's a bit cheeky. But with the kind of the drumbeat I mean, how would you describe it? Tom, I'm not the person to talk about this!

Tom Anderson 31:31

Well, the reference point for it is because when I'm personally working out is that - which doesn't happen very often by the way, I should probably point out at this point!! - but when it very rarely does happen is I'll listen to stuff like Nile Rodgers & CHIC and you know, like when Daft Punk went through their Get Lucky stage. I love that kind of stuff. Because it's like energetic and music that's designed to be danced too. And so I thought, well, yeah, that could work perfectly for what you guys definitely doing as well.

Sparky 32:04

And the pace of it, Tom, I feel like the pace really works with it. Because we're just a bunch of blokes just trying to get on with losing a bit of weight. And it's like forward, it's progressive. When I hear that beat coming. I do think that that's what it does. It is it is just our music. It's us. And that sound is yeah, the Men Lose Weight sound. And that's, that's why it's so important, like just as important as the “Da da da da daa” - we're just not as big as Ronald McDonald yet!

Tom Anderson 32:27

“YET” being the key word there!

Sparky32:29

Exactly Tom! Ever an optimist!

Ben Anderson 32:32

But I think just from this conversation, you can see the level of detail that Tom goes into. Tom tries to get the feel, the vibe of not just you, your company, but also what you're trying to achieve through the podcast. And it just, again, it's just that thing of raising the production values. They're not big, obvious ‘slap you in the face’ things. But it's the overall building up of professional sound, your professional bespoke music, your professional voiceover, your decent equipment being recorded in a dead room. It's just layering all of these different elements is what creates the whole. And it also it's something Sparky, we were talking about. By having these professional elements. A lot of people want to be quite conversational, and - chilled is probably the wrong word - But they want the podcast to sound natural. And for it to flow in terms of the conversation, we're going to talk about editing in a different episode and how we can help to achieve that and help to kind of slicken that up a little bit. But by having all of these professional elements around you, it enables you to be more conversational, and more relaxed, because it sounds like a proper show.

Sparky 33:39

Well, that's it like for me when I think about a podcast in comparison to a radio show. I think that a podcast is more relaxed and chill, to say, Ben. But you like I said earlier, anyone can make a podcast now, right? But everybody doesn't want to listen to a podcast made by anybody. People want to listen to a podcast that sounds legit. I do think that and that's why again, all of these things that we've talked about in this episode are really important to think about before you put out your first episode. Yeah there are cheaper alternatives. Yeah you can also go onto a website and click through a load of sounds that are already recorded. But then the issue is, someone else might have your sound if somebody else can pay for a piece of music and your podcast could have the same sound as somebody else's podcast and you don't want that. Yeah, but that's that is another option you can do you can record him do a whole podcast on an iPhone. We're not saying people won't listen to you at all. But taking these steps are really going to lift you your head above the water in a world where anybody can start making podcasts now.

Tom Anderson 34:41

Yeah I think with stock stuff, it is you know, it's a slightly cheaper alternative in terms of the licencing over a period of time it actually doesn't work out that much cheaper, I don't think. But, like you say, it's rarely exclusive - that no one else will have that music.

Ben Anderson 34:59

It's It sounds like a stock piece of music, that’s it. There's no person-... I don't wanna say there's no personality to these things, but it's like a stock photo looks like a stock photo. Stock music sounds like stock music.

Sparky 35:11

You know you're watching a YouTube video where someone's just nicked this music from somewhere.

Tom Anderson 35:14

And the process that we go through with making the bespoke music - just to finish off this little segment - is entirely collaborative. So say for example, we'll start by Ben chatting to you, or a representative from Sound Rebel, chatting to you about what it is that you would like to get from the music and then you’ll chat with me and then we'll go little bit further I'll make up three versions of what it could be so you can come back listen to it, give it a little critique and it's an entirely collaborative process so that you know that by the end of that you have got the absolute perfect accompaniment to go with what you're trying to get across to people.

Ben Anderson 35:56

Work with us, work with Tom…

Outro (Sparky) 36:11

So that wraps up this episode of Pod Like A Pro. Next week, we'll be looking into recording and editing your podcast. This is Pod Like A Pro. And … doesn't this voiceover sound professional.