Pod Like a Pro: Episode 4

Pod Like a Pro – Episode Four

Recording Your Podcast

Sparky 0:22

This is Pod Like A Pro, the podcast that helps you to become a better podcast creator. I'm Sparky and I'm here with Ben Anderson. And on this episode, we will be talking about recording your podcast. We're joined by Gemma Cutting, who is a producer from the radio industry, who will also be able to give us some info going forward on the best way to produce your podcast. Now, again, there's lots of things you need to tick off along the way. And as I said, we have a producer who has lots of radio experience. So, we're speaking to Gemma in a second. But Ben, first and foremost, when it comes to recording your podcast, we've covered off some of the equipment you use, like how to set up your room. We've spoken to Tom, on a previous episode. What are we expecting to get from this episode today?

Ben Anderson 1:06

Well, this is the this is the thing, isn't it? You know, you've put all the thought into it, you've created your format, you've thought through who you want to get on your podcast, the kinds of themes and topics that you want to discuss, you've got your room set up, as you said, you've got your microphone, you're ready to go. And now you've actually got to record the thing. Essentially, today, we're going to talk about what you need to do before, how it works during, especially in terms of remote recording, because obviously we're doing a lot of that. And actually, the benefits and I'm sure Gem will talk about this, the benefits of recording remotely as opposed to doing it on location. And we'll talk a little bit about the Edit afterwards as well. But yeah, I think it's time to introduce Sound Rebel’s finest producer. Hi, Gem.

Gemma Cutting 1:49

Well, this is quite exciting. I never normally get to be on the podcasts. So, hi.

Sparky 1:54

Hi, Gem. Now, Gem, you produced a number of podcasts for sound rebel, you've also worked in the radio industry as we’ve spoken about already. Just to jump into it straight away. Like what is your first thought when you know looking at a new podcast looking at starting something, you know what things? How are you going to get your ducks in a line. So you know, you're all ready to go with episode one.

Gemma Cutting 2:14

I think it's, for me, I like being organised. I like everyone to know when we're recording what time what equipment they need, how to be set up, we've got a guide that we send out to all of our guests who appear on the podcasts, because most of them are kind of guest or interview format based. I make sure that they know that they need to have headphones on they need to have their zoom on something else and what they're recording on how exactly they are recording. So that we can get the best audio quality so that when we start that Zoom recording, we're not kind of faffing going, “Oh, have you got a headphone somewhere? Can you get there? Oh what do I need to do?” So that everyone's ready to go, everyone's prepared and we can kind of get into it.

Ben Anderson 2:54

To be honest, this is the difference between me as a producer and Gem as a producer. When I was producing more things hands on, I'd be there going “right okay. Right. This week we got this is literally how get everything sorted on a Monday Sparky!” I'm not saying I'm completely disorganised. But Gem, when she produces a podcast, she's got the first five seasons lined up in her head before you even click record on Episode One. incredibly thorough, incredibly organised.

Sparky 3:19

And that's what it's about. It's like the forward thinking, I think something straightaway to jump on that you've said there is like, you can't expect all of your guests to be tech savvy. So in a guest environment with your podcast, you're gonna be inviting people on. You know, they don't know how to make their zoom connect to a microphone, they don't know how you gonna want to record. So you're in this sort of pack that you send out, Gem, to your guests and stuff, like, what sort of things are in that pack?

Gemma Cutting 3:45

Well, it's fairly basic, because I think it's important, like you just said to remember that a lot of these people won't have recorded audio before. And also, I think with the organisation thing, it helps people to feel more comfortable, because I find a lot of guests are really nervous. I'm recording something at the minute. And every guest has gone to the host. “Oh God, I don't know if I want to, I don't really know.” And has got really nervous. And I think if you're already there, and you've got your equipment set up, your headphones are plugged in, and all of that helps people to feel more relaxed to start with. But it's literally like you need to have headphones on so that the Zoom audio isn't bleeding through Please can you record on the Notes app on your phone, because weirdly, that gives us a great audio quality. We don't use Zoom, you might have covered this already. But we don't use the Zoom audio to record because obviously if there's internet issues and Wi Fi issues like we've all had and people start to kind of go “uh uh uh” and it's freezing, that audio then becomes unusable, where if that person carries on talking they haven't realised that their zooms, freezing, their phone is still sat there recording perfect audio that they then send to us. So it's almost like an Idiot's Guide of how to record your audio. And when I send it I always make a point of putting in the email, “I'm really sorry if you already know all of this” because sometimes I'm like, “these are where your headphones go, this is how you do it...”

Ben Anderson 5:07

We don't call it “The Idiot’s Guide!”.

Sparky 5:08

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just, it's just simplify things. We're not calling any clients an idiot. But that's it. It's like we are all audio professional. So we, you know, we haven't standard that we'd expect from the three of us talking today. But you know, like you say, guests who come on, they might not know. And definitely, I would say a technical issue is enough to start people's nerves fluttering, if they're already nervous, ahead of getting on your podcast. So getting all those things right, before you even sit down to record is a brilliant shout, Gem.

Gemma Cutting 5:36

Yeah, but I think - you know - I can't paint. If somebody said to me, right, I want you to paint a picture, I would literally need them to go this is this is the temperature of water you need. This is the size of brush you need. This is how you put paint on the paper. And I think…

Ben Anderson 5:50

.. and the red bits go in number one, the blue bits go in number five!!

Gemma Cutting 5:54

I think it's better to oversimplify so that everybody is very clear on what they're doing, then assume that people know things. And then people are panicking going, “Oh, God, I don't understand what you just told me to do!”

Sparky 6:06

So that's a great way of doing it. So I feel like that's another given. But what other things you know, would you do at the start, you know, like in terms of audio, reassuring your guests that not everything that's recorded is going to end up on the podcast. So if they do say something, you know,

Gemma Cutting 6:21

like you said, it's about reassurance, I always make sure that I say, you know, “if you mess something up, we can start again, we can re ask the question, I can edit anything out that you don't want in there”. You know, I think sometimes we've had situations where people have spoken about something and then emailed afterwards and gone. “Oh, God, I wish I hadn't said that. Can you take it out?” You know, stuff like that is not an issue at all. And the other thing, I always, at the end, get the host to ask the guest if there's anything else that they would like to speak about, because sometimes people have gotten their head, this brilliant story, or something that they'd like to promote. And then it doesn't naturally come up in that flow of conversation. And I think it's nice to ask that question at the end. So that everybody's happy. You know, the host is happy that they've asked all of their questions, the guest is happy that they have said everything that they want to say. And in the process of recording, I'm always making notes, I think it's quite difficult if you are interviewing or being interviewed, a lot of the time you spend thinking, “Oh, God, I'm trying to listen to what they're saying, and what am I saying next? And what am I going to answer? And have I said this that I've written down, I really need to get this point across.” And when you're producing, you can just listen to that conversation. And you can pick up on things like, “Oh, that was really interesting. And I wish you'd spoken more about that. And all if you'd have asked this question, maybe we would have got like this great answer.” So that's something that when the interview has completely finished, or the guests have completely finished speaking, that's the point I jump in, don't always need to but sometimes and go, “do you know, what do you just mind asking this question? Like, if you've got an answer to this, this could work really well”. And then in the edit, that's where you obviously move everything around. Sometimes the order of something is completely different in the Edit than how that conversation actually went. Because it doesn't matter, you can have five minutes at the end, that ends up being the first part of the conversation sometimes.

Ben Anderson 8:20

In a minute, I'd like to turn the tables on you guys and pick your brain because obviously, producing is about making sure that the technical side of things is working. Okay. But it's also very much about the relationship that a producer has with the presenter. But before we move on to that just being a technically good producer: Are we are all recording OK?? Still remotely? Everyone’s recording’s going alright?!

Gemma Cutting 8:38

I've just checked you don't need to ask me that! Very professional!

Sparky 8:43

I've got some lovely waves, waves bouncing up and down. I'm still recording mate! It’s all good!

Ben Anderson 8:48

Good. I mean, Sparky, can I ask you first because you do a breakfast show every single morning, you've had a number of different producers throughout your time on the radio – a very long career in radio now!

Sparky 9:00

Including you. You've been one of my producers.

Ben Anderson 9:04

I have, you know, I'm not expecting the answers to this to be: “Of course, everything that you've done!” But what makes a.. - Yeah, yeah, if you don't, I'll be I'll be devastated! - …But from a, from a presenter’s point of view, what makes a really good producer?

Sparky 9:21

I'd say for me, it's someone that can read you, like can understand you, you really need to understand your presenters or your hosts if you're a producer. In terms of - is like for me, I will come up with some ideas that are completely ridiculous sometimes, but I still want my producer to make me feel like they're a good idea because then that continues to motivate me to keep coming up with ideas. Now, some of those you can I'm not saying pretend but you know, you can take an idea and you can either go “No that's rubbish!” and that's going to leave me demotivated and going forward it makes things difficult to come up with more ideas because I'm trying to second guess why you didn't like that last idea. So I think a real skill of a producer is, is that, is managing people's ideas and, and noticing that when they like just sharing their life with you that “Oh, I can pick that off” - that that's content mate, like, don't forget, you can use that in the podcast. Like, for me, that's, that's how I like to be produced. I like real honesty as well, though, in terms of straight talking. If something is ridiculous, then I kind of do need to know that a bit too. So I can stop thinking about those ideas. I'm not sure if I've been very clear here, but I guess what I'm saying. It's a game of organisation and motivation. And it's a balance between those two, you know, you've got to keep me saying the right things on air and make sure I'm bringing the right content to the podcast or to the radio show. But also getting up at five o'clock in the morning every day. And then bringing in something that I think is a fantastic idea and dropping on the table at 5am. To be told “Nah”. Then to have to go and do a four hour radio show after that really can affect your mood. So like it's .. that, but…

Ben Anderson 11:00

So what you're saying is you want to be told that your ideas are good, even if they're bad.

Sparky 11:04

Basically that!! But really its…

Ben Anderson 11:08

It’s not - I totally get you because we worked together for a year. And it’s totally about understanding who you working with. And is sometimes it's just as simple as timing, isn't it. But as you say, “Don't tell me that at five o'clock in the morning, I'm already knackered. I've got a son who's been crying all night, I've come in into this radio show, let’s talk about this afterwards…” it's about knowing, whereas actually other presenters I've worked with would like it the other way around. They'd want to know at five o'clock in the morning, so you can get out of the way early and crack on with the rest of the day.

Sparky 11:36

Exactly. So I suppose every presenter you work with is different. But really the fundamentals as like what Gemma said, at the start of this is being organised because I am not in radio because I'm an organised guy. Like I'm in radio, because my mind is all over the place. And I'm plucking ideas left, right and centre. And then I need someone like you, Ben, when you spreadsheets and my producer at the moment, you know, keeping me organised telling me where I need to be and reminding me Oh, yeah, you know, when you do that, don't forget that we've got that client to appease. And we've got that to do. You know, making sure… Covering my backside, basically, is what I'm saying!

Ben Anderson 12:10

I mean Gem, you worked on a breakfast show for ages, where for quite a long time, you didn't have a producer. And then a company bought the radio station he worked for and put a producer in on the breakfast show. Is that right?

Gem 12:26

Yes.

Ben Anderson 12:27

And what was the difference? Like they're bearing in mind that you've been self-producing for so long? Like what what differences Did you notice? Or is the answer “none and it was a waste of however many grand they paid that producer”!!

Sparky 12:39

“I liked it better when I had my own control!” Is that it Gem?!

Gemma Cutting 12:41

No, I think the role of a producer is, or one of the roles, and relating it back to podcasts, I think it's about being that calming influence. So if things start to go wrong, or if things get a bit hectic, so relating it back to what we're talking about now, the other day, I had a guest who for some reason, couldn't find the Notes app on her phone. So, it’d got about 10 minutes into the recording. And everyone you could see everyone start to get- she's going “Oh my God, but it was here a minute ago, and I couldn't find it!” And then the host, you can see are kind of looking at a, y’know, a watch and thinking “Oh, this isn't going very well!” And I think sometimes it's about just being that calm influence. Go “no, it's fine, why don't you try this?” Like to be that voice where everyone else is starting to panic a little bit and go “Oh God! This isn't going well, this isn't a good start!” To be like “no, no, no, no, everything's fine, we've got all the time in the world. This is how you find your notes app. This is how you record.” And I think you have to understand what the end goal of either, you know, a breakfast show or a podcast is. Because you have to be on the same wavelength. There's no point in somebody's thinking, “I want this to be really high energy and really fun”. And and then you’re going “Well, I think maybe if you make it a bit quieter and you know, change this…” I think it's very important to be on the same wavelength. And there's an element of trust there as well. Like going back to your question, Ben, when we got a producer, I was alright, my co-host found it incredibly difficult to pass things off and go “ It's fine. You can do this as well as I would have done it.” He was still like, “I'm gonna do it all.” And it was like, “Well, no, because then our producer can't actually do anything!” like, you need to let him do his job! But I think in relation to podcasts, I think there has to be that element of trust between the host and the producer. So the host knows that you are going to catch everything if it starts to unravel or there's technical issues or whatever it is and that they know that you understand the vision for their podcast because ultimately, that's their baby. It's probably something that they've been thinking about for a really long time. It's something that they have put a financial investment into. And they're also probably incredibly nervous. Because even as you know, myself and Sparky have worked in the radio industry for years, when you're doing something new, and you don't know what to expect, and you're interviewing somebody that maybe you don't know, you do, you know, we've done it for years, but there's, there's still that moment of “oh God, is this gonna go? Well? Will there be a nice person? Or is the conversation going to gonna go well? Or is it going to be a bit awkward?” So I think if you don't have that experience, that's going to be times 100, isn't it? So I think that's definitely something else to bear in mind.

Sparky 15:33

Definitely to touch on one of your points Gem is being on the same wavelength light, that's good. If you're gonna look in for a producer for your podcast, then you need potentially someone who is not thinking exactly the same as you. But as you say, on the same wavelength. You've got the same end goal and you can both work in your own individual ways towards that end goal. Now that might be in it, you might do it as the presenter in a more creative way. And your producer might do it in a more organised way. You put those two together, and it's a harmony, and it makes an organised podcast.

Gemma Cutting 16:02

Yeah.

Ben Anderson 16:03

That's how we work it here at Sound Rebel, you know, someone comes to us, and they say, “We are this brand. And we would like to produce a podcast like this.” It won't always be me that jumps in and does it, it won’t al- it might be Gem. But Gem, you're interested in – you produce a lot of lifestyle podcasts, don't you, but then somebody's business might not be your bag. Like we try to match whoever the client is with the producer that has the most kind of natural affinity to that anyway, to try and achieve that. And the one thing I always used to say, when I was producing breakfast shows - I worked with all sorts of different personalities, and a good producer realises that they, y’know, this show, you've got to build a wall. And the presenters bring different bricks, you've basically got to fill in the gaps. And wherever the presents that doesn't bring, that's what a producer's job is, if you think of it like a pyramid, you want your presenters right at the very top of the pyramid, focusing on the final product, the point the bit that goes out to the audience, a producer, takes up the rest of that foundation. They're doing all of that other work so that the presenter can just do what they do best, which is focused on making the content. That's what a good producer does anywat.

Gemma Cutting 17:18

Yeah, I think ultimately, the producer is there to make the presenter, podcast host, guest, wherever it is, sound good. Sound the best that they possibly can. That's ultimately what it comes down to. Isn't it?

Sparky 17:30

And… Absolutely! And there's a number of ways that you can get there. But yeah, the team you'll pick to build a podcast with will hopefully have a great producer in it. That will be like you say, if you're doing it, if you're approaching sound rebel for a business opportunity. He's like Ben is thinking about that. And what will be the right producer for you in the lineup of his… What do you call it? Roster! …In the sound rebel roster of producers and talent, that Ben's got signed in?

So we've covered off what you do to set up before you start recording your podcast, we've talked about what you do during your podcast. But Gem, what's your role as the producer? Once we've recorded it all?

Gemma Cutting 18:12

I think it's to take the audio that we've got and make it into a, well, an entertaining, flowing, natural conversation about the subject matter. Because there's obviously going to be parts of that that, you know, people naturally talk over each other, or stumble or go “Urgh, well, yeah, cos then ohhh..” we get rid of all of that. We make it sound cohesive. And… what's the word I'm trying to think of? What’s the word?

Sparky 18:46

This is an example that Gem’s given us live!! This is what we’d edit this bit out while she's thinking! Then we’d cohesively blend through! Very professional producer, Gemma!

Gemma Cutting 18:57

That bit it would not make the podcast!! But I think it's, and also it's about that word editing. It isn't just a physical thing. It's editing the parts that are the most interesting because -

Ben Anderson 19:10

- it's an art not a science, isn't it?

Gemma Cutting 19:12

You could have the most interesting conversation. But let's face it, no one has time to listen to a podcast that's an hour and a half long, we're all too busy. So you know there are certain bits if that conversation went on too long, there are certain bits that need to not be there to make it, not necessarily short and snappy, but the length that somebody would be prepared to give a podcast, which to me, is about 45 minutes at a maximum. I'd look at that and go cool. I'm driving somewhere today. So I'm going to put this on and I've got time to listen to it. And 45 minutes, you know, that will hold your attention if you're interested and you are because podcasts are niche. That's what's great about them. You know, podcast you are listening to it because you are interested in the guest or the subject or what they talking about. But there's always there is always a certain amount of editing to do to make it sound, like I said before, the best it can possibly sound, you've got what is hopefully a really interesting conversation, and you make it sound brilliant.

Sparky 20:16

So Gem, that's why it's important that you as the producer, there for the whole process, like you say, he's there at the start, you're there listening whilst it's been recorded. So therefore, you know, you're like you say, you're forever making notes, you're noting down like, “Okay, well, that was a good conversation but it was actually good, the first two minutes of that, and then it just got a bit long winded. And there were some points that weren't necessary, didn't really add anything.” Like you're looking for those points, to make sure that if you do go over that 45 minute mark, you can clip it down, and it can still be clear, and get the good points in there.

Gemma Cutting 20:45

Yeah, and I think, as the role of a producer, you are there for the whole process, you know, we're there for that initial conversation that Ben would have with a client of what do you want this podcast to be? Who is it that you want to listen? What do you want to make them feel? What do you want to make them do? Is it for brand awareness? Is it to build your social media following? Is it because you're setting up another arm of the business that you want to talk about? And I think, as a producer, if I'm there for that initial conversation, I understand exactly what the aim of the podcast is. You get to know the host as you go along. And you do, you know, all of those things, supporting them while you're recording. And then so when you do get to that point of editing the podcast together, you've got a clearer understanding of what those important things are and what they're not. Because we want them to sound as natural as possible. So in an interview, you could easily go off on a tangent and go “Oh, God, do you know, so that thing you just said about your cat that it did the other day,” y’know, to some podcast, that could be absolutely relevant, and that conversation needs to stay in. But some of them, it doesn't really matter, it might have been very funny. But that's taking it into a bit of a different realm. And you think I've really enjoyed listening to that bit, but for this particular podcast that needs to go. So I think it's having that, that a well-rounded understanding of exactly how that podcast needs to sound. And also, sometimes it is saying, “I don't think that this will work.”

Sparky 22:19

And that was what I was just gonna jump in and say, Gem, it's like you have to have this sort of brutality. Or your presenter might find it a bit brutal-

Gemma Cutting 22:28

I’m not brutal FYI!!

Sparky 22:31

Gemma’s lovely, right! But know what I mean by that is, you need to understand that what is good content and helps the flow of the conversation, whilst the podcast’s live, might not need to be heard by the audience at the end of it. Like if it's, if you go off on a tangent about your cat, but it really helps everybody get better talking together your guest, your host, you can leave that let that happen at the time. But it's not important that it's there. But you might find that the next bit of your podcast is even nicer, because you've allowed that. You understand?

Gemma Cutting 22:58

I think as well, though, sometimes people will have ideas and they'll go, I'd really like to do this as part of the podcast. And you know, sometimes those ideas are brilliant. But sometimes, if you think about logistically, how that will work, how that will sound, because everything that somebody wants to do, we are thinking of it from a purely audio point of view. Whereas when somebody has a good idea, they might not be thinking about it in the capacity of this will only be audio, you know, some people might think I want to do this thing. And visually, it could look amazing and work really well. But in a podcast where someone's listening on a run with the headphones in, does that connect properly with your audience? So sometimes, it's not necessarily going “you can't do this, it won't work,” it's like, “well, this is a great idea, how about if we changed it slightly and made it more like this, so that it will work better.” To get across what it is that you're trying to achieve?

Ben Anderson 24:01

Or, y’know “why don't you do that bit on social?” but for the audio part of it, it's not gonna work because people are just listening. You do, people forget that you are taking away quite a few - You already got your ears? Haven’t you, listening to a podcast!

Sparky 24:12

That's another thing to it that's worth putting down. It's almost like the producer’s forever holding up the rulebook or the what your- No, but it's true. It's like what you were saying, Gem, like, “Who am I talking to? Who am I trying to connect with,” you know, you'll go through that with a client. And it's the producer’s role to, you know, to hold that and make sure that whatever gets talked about in the podcast comes back to those values. It's easy when a presenter’s in performance mode or trying to make a funny or trying to just be entertaining that they lose sight of that. And again, that's, that's the role of the producer.

Gemma Cutting 24:45

Yeah, I think that in radio, we were always told, like, I mean, and it's ridiculous because it's far too niche, and I never agreed with this. It was like “you are speaking to a 24 year old girl and this is what she does her job. And this is how much money she's got to spend.” And you think, “Well, no, I'm not. I'm speaking to loads of different types of people.” But I think there's an element of that. That is correct. You do need to think especially because we spoke about podcasts being so niche, it is very important to think and have in mind, “who am I talking to?” Am I talking to predominantly women? Am I talking to people who are in the same industry as me? Who understand, like technical terms that I'm going to be using? Or am I talking to consumers who I need to explain those technical- It's just things like that, you need to think to yourself, “Who am I aiming this at? And is what I'm saying relevant to them?”

Sparky 25:45

That is the best explanation of what a producer is for me Gem. I think you've absolutely hit it on the head there! That’s bang on! But that is, that's absolutely it. It always comes back to your original hymn sheet should we call it from the first meeting with Ben when you know, you call up Sound Rebel, you're like, “look, I've got my so and so company, I want to do this. These are my goals.” Gem takes that away, and just make sure that you're the podcast keeps coming back to that page.

So I think we really have an idea now like, we're really getting an idea of how you can build your podcast like a pro. Like Gem has really laid it down for us in a way of how you should be looking at building a podcast from a producer's perspective. And again, we offer the services at Sound Rebel, and you can contact… how Ben?

Ben Anderson 26:33

Hello! At soundrebel.co.uk . Sorry, Sparky. I'm just looking at some of the notes I've made from what Gemma was telling us earlier. Has everyone covered everything that they wanted to cover?!

Sparky 26:45

Is there anything else Gem would like to add in to the podcast? Are we happy that, you know, we've got all of our stories out?

Gemma Cutting 26:52

That is a very good question to ask at the end of a podcast!! I wonder where you got that from

Sparky 26:59

Evidence we've been listening?!

Gemma Cutting 27:00

Do you know what there is actually something else that I would like to say. Now it might sound a bit stupid, right? But I just like to make the point that we're a really nice company to work with. Because I think sometimes with media companies and with podcasts and radio, there's this perception of of, “oh, you know, we're really cool, we make audio…” and I don't want to use a swear word. But it's the only thing that's coming to my head! But we're not like that. We don't think that we're very cool. And we only want to work with like cool people sorry to you to have just called you not cool!

Ben Anderson 27:38

I was gonna say, if you want to work with an uncool production company then…

Sparky 27:44

The best thing in uncool podcasts! It’s Sound Rebel!

Gemma Cutting 27:48

But just sometimes by looking at a website, and you know, the Sound Rebel website is very nice. It's very professional and very swanky. But I think sometimes that's important. It's important to work with nice people who make you feel good, who want to support you and bring out the best in you. And I don't know if all companies have that as an ethos and values where Sound Rebel really does. So it's just something that I wanted to mention at the end, we'll make it like a fun, enjoyable experience, while still being very professional, and you will get an excellent end product, but the whole process will just be nice!

Sparky 28:26

Fantastic. Gem! Look, I really think we've covered off loads on Episode Four now of Pod Like A Pro. Now you know how to produce. We've covered off how you set up your studio. Hopefully by now you're getting a great picture of how to build your podcast like a pro. On the next episode, we'll be joined by Ed Nell, and we're gonna go through some of the essentials when it comes to presenting your podcast. This is Pod Like A Pro.