Pod Like a Pro: Episode 5

Pod Like a Pro – Episode Five

The Basics of Podcast Presenting

Sparky 0:22

This is Pod Like A Pro, the podcast that's going to help you create a quality professional Podcast. I'm Sparky, joined by Sound Rebel’s Ben Anderson. And this week on an episode where you'll learn the basics of presenting, we are joined by media professional, from media insiders, and commercial and BBC Radio legend, Ed Nell.

Ed Nell 0:45

Thanks for the legend bit, by the way, that's great. It's a lovely intro that.

Sparky 0:50

Well, we're telling people how to do things professionally. So that's why you are on this week's episode, we're hopefully gonna get some insight on how to present a podcast professionally, precisely and to hopefully to make contact with the audience.

Ed Nell 1:05

Oh the pressures on now. Okay, yeah, let's do it.

Ben Anderson 1:08

Let's do it. Easy, easy.

Before we get into it, Ed. I mean, Sparky, you gave a bit of a CV there. But you want to give us a bit more background information on you. Because we've worked together? Well, I produced you when we worked together in the Black Country. I met you as a commercial radio presenter, but since then you've done loads of work for the BBC to like, ABC, you and tell us a bit more about you.

Ed Nell 1:38

Well, so yeah, commercial radio, I suppose really, is what I've done most of my career, probably about 15 years. Oh, my God. 15 years, yeah, 15 years, commercial radio, just moving all around the country doing all sorts of different types of shows. So, a lot of music shows where it's more about selling the music, and being passionate about that, and kind of keeping it rolling. And then a few personality shows like breakfast shows as well, which is kind of more about your content and creating that deeper connection with your audience, I suppose. And then from that, so a couple of years ago, I suppose I changed to doing more BBC based stuff, which, although you've got very much the same skill set in terms of the thread of communication, storytelling, creating connection for the audience, there's a very different way of doing it. And the skills are completely transferable. But it's just almost adapting your mind about how you're going to do that. So it's more content lead, it's kind of longer form speech. I suppose normally, in terms of breakfast shows, it would be like three minutes might be a maximum for how long a link would be, whereas potentially the BBC, I mean, I've done like a speech breakfast show now at the BBC. So, you're looking at potentially, well, before you get your first break, you could be doing about 25 minutes of speech. And in during that time, you can have three or four different guests on and off. You've got a producer in your ear talking to you and telling you what's happening next. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot going on. But again, it's all it's all the same kind of thread of presentation, really, I guess.

Sparky 3:08

Now a lot of people think that, you know, oh, if you just do radio, you can just bounce straight over into podcasting. So what you're going to show us today or tell us today is how you can combine some of the skills you've learned along your way, the key points, which people who want to present a podcast might need to go forward.

Ben Anderson 3:25

Well, for anyone as well, isn't it? Like the media insiders is a fantastic organisation, you know, normal people who really know their stuff, for example, Steve Hadley, who's the Chair of the FPS, the Federation of Piling Specialists, they're an industrial body who look after the interests of pilers – the people who prepare the ground for big builds, foundations, essentially. Steve really knows his stuff when it comes to ground engineering. And he now represents the industry in his role with the FPS, but he wasn't hugely confident when it came to presenting, you recognise that and decided to take action. So you did some training with him, didn’t you Ed? Basically, it's taking people who are really educated on their subject and helping them mould that into something that's clear and precise. And judging by this long-winded answer, I think I need some media training. Now I’m rambling.

Ed Nell 4:17

It’s a good point that you bring up Ben, because I think with podcasts, especially, you are the expert in your field. So if you feel you've got a message to get across you no doubt, you understand your subject, no doubt, you're an expert in your subject. So I'm not going to tell you how to talk about your subject because well, I don't know what you know. However, how you frame it and get your message across might feel quite an alien concept to you at the time. And also, to make sure you reach people who may be new to what you're talking about. So, if you're throwing in all sorts of technical speak, that might lose your audience. So, it's important not only to understand how you prep but also having your audience in mind and thinking, who is going to be listening to this? And at what level you should pitch it out in terms of the language you use and the phrases. Just also, it's always good to think about who your audience is to make sure that they're going to get everything that you want them to get out of your podcast, I guess.

Sparky 5:17

So you're going to talk us through some of the preparation techniques you'd recommend for someone who's an expert in their field, but wants to start a podcast, and then some of the performance and presentation skills that you've learned along the way, you're gonna share them on this episode today. Should we get into it? Let's do it. Let's go with prep then. So where would we start? So like, say I'm a piling expert. I want to do a podcast out there. Let's use that case study. If you want, Ed. I don't know if you've got one prepared. But, you know, what would be the first thing you'd say to me? If I wanted to start a podcast?

Ed Nell 5:50

Prep is obviously vital. I mean, you might go, look, I know, I know, my subjects. And I can talk for hours about my subject. But you've got to prep exactly what you want to put in each episode. So if you're going right, I'm going to do a 20 minute episode. I mean, that's a prep point as well, because you can't just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. You might go right 20-minute episode, this is episode one. Okay, so what exactly when it comes to, for example, piling, am I going to talk about in episode one? Is it going to be an introduction to my subject, maybe a little bit of a background about who I am? And why I'm such an expert in my subjects? Or is it going to be… I don't know enough about piling to give you an example about piling specifically….

Okay, I'm going to talk to you about concrete supports inside piles. And the depth of concrete you've got to put in to make sure it's going to be stable. I mean, like, you know, how specialist are you going to go? And I think that's really important. That is really a starting point, isn't it? With every subject, there are so many different facets of that subject. And you can't just throw it all at one episode of podcast, because otherwise, for one thing, it could be about four days long, and for to your audience are going to go what sorry, where are we here?

Ben Anderson 7:13

I think with prep as well, it's, it's about confidence, isn't it, it's important to have a plan before you go into something, you know, if you if you do wander off track, then our producers can rein you in or edit it out. It's not the end of the world. But I think prep is mainly about confidence. It's about it's about going into something knowing that not only do you know your stuff in general, but what specific bits would you like to get across. Because when you get into it, and let's say it's an interview format, your guests could potentially go off on one, and it's your job to bring them back in. But you know, think about the structure of how you want it to go, before you've even clicked record. So therefore, you've got the confidence that you can always bring the conversation back to where it needs to be, if it does wonder. But it's not just that, planning means that you can definitely get that stat in that you think is hugely relevant to the conversation, and you can definitely reference that paper or credit that speaker. Confidence in delivery comes from planning – and confidence that is such an important part of the overall performance, isn't it?

Ed Nell 8:10

Hugely, I mean, you've got to know, your subject, but also it's about bringing it back on track. And like you say, there’s different kinds of formats. Is your podcast going to be an interview format? Or is it going to be you talking through life stories to illuminate your subject? What’s important is knowing the kind of the animal that you're approaching in terms of what you're going to be doing with it, but also the level of prep, I think that you put in as well, because I think there is a tendency, you can either under prep, and you've got nothing and you just go look, I can wing this, and I'll be alright. And it will turn out, maybe you can, maybe you can't. But you know, for me, you want a few safety nets. And then the next side of that is over prepping. And so actually, you're almost reading a script, which is going to sound really robotic, and unnatural. Whereas you know, you kind of want that right level. And I would say the right level really is just alluding to the benefit of bullet points, and certain key elements that you might want to get in, and then you can talk around those.

It's like doing a presentation. And I'm sure if you're an expert in your field anyway, you've probably had to present to colleagues about what you do. And it's very much like that, that you may have a slide if you're doing a PowerPoint, a key message, and then you can talk around that key message. And I would say the same for your prep really, I'd almost prep it like you're doing a PowerPoint presentation. So they say don't put too much information on each slide. And you just don't need to – it’s kind of a reminder for you (as much as it’s for the audience) about what you're going to be delivering. So I think key bullet points.

And then also the overall structure is vital in terms of how your podcast is going to be. And I would think about it as a beginning, middle and end. Any good stories got to have a beginning, middle and end. And that's so true of a podcast as well. And sometimes it's easier to start at the end and go look what's going to be my final thought on this podcast, and work backwards from there. So I think those are some key points in terms of, before you even start your podcast, and approach your microphone, do that groundwork to make sure you feel confident going in.

Ben Anderson 10:17

I think that's a really interesting point. And also the point about over prepping, there's nothing worse than hearing somebody go, and now I must ask this question, because it's what I've got written down. You need to have fluidity to your approach as well, don't you?

Ed Nell 10:31

Definitely. I mean, that is really important. I've noticed that more as well, when I've been working with the BBC, because you'll come in and they'll go, right, you've got a seven-minute interview with a guest here. These are the three key questions we want to get out of them. And, you know, you can certainly still go back to that, but you have got to go with the flow of where the guest is going to go. Because let's be honest, they're an unknown quantity, any guests are an unknown quantity, and you never quite know what they're going to say. And actually, you know, you might ask question one. And yeah, you want to come back to your final two questions. But they've just said something so interesting, that leads into a whole different area. And that's the beauty of a podcast as well is it's recorded, it's not a live piece of audio. So actually, you can explore things and go in so much deeper, which is the beauty, I think of podcasts that you can just, you could go, look, I had 10 minutes planned with this guest, but I've actually done 40 minutes. And we might only use, I don't know, maybe six minutes of this, but you've got that time. And so you can explore and go like this, we've just found such an interesting story that I never imagined we would visit. And then that could be the star of the podcast, it's a part that you never even imagined, would even be part of it in the first place.

Sparky 11:42

What I think is a good point, from what you're saying, like treating it like a PowerPoint presentation, or keynotes is like, you know, when they set out at the beginning, by the end of this episode, we're gonna know this, this this. So no matter how many tangents your guests may go off on, or you might go off on, as long as you come back to that headline at the start of well, what's this comes back to what we initially started, then that's how you keep an episode on track, I would say, definitely hearing from what you've just said there at anyway, that's what I took clearly.

Ed Nell 12:10

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there are so many different ways that you could approach it without getting too confused in this message. I mean, you might just go look, I found an interesting person that I want to interview, I don't even know how this episode's gonna go together. But actually, the interview and how that goes, could then make you go right, this is my jumping off point here. And I'm now going to write the episode around this interview. And so that then creates your starting point. And you'll go look in this interview, we will learn this and this and this. And then at the end, you kind of sum it up and the meat of it, the sort of, I suppose the detail is the actual interview, but you haven't gone in with some pre-ordained ideas of this is the structure. And this is how I want my episode to be, to go with the flow. And you could find something incredibly creative, which I know kind of contradicts what I've just said in terms of structure is really important. Prep is really important. But you've got to go in with those ideas. And then you go from that.

Sparky 13:08

Well, that's why the production of Sound Rebel is important. Because we've a professional producer, you can almost put that structure in post. Like in postproduction, you edit the structure in, because like you said, if a an interview takes you off on a brilliant tangent, which gives you a whole new jumping off point for the episode that you're going to do. You can edit that in post, that could be the first thing you record, but be the last part of your podcast episode one Sound Rebel’s got their hands on it.

Ben Anderson 13:37

Okay, so on the prep side of things, then what we're saying is don't under prep, don't over prep, have an idea of what you want your audience to take away from that episode, but also be flexible.

Ed Nell 13:49

I know there's a lot to take in there isn't there?

Sparky 13:53

It's like life, you know, it's like, you know, we want to be prepared. But you don't wanna be too prepared. You want to go with the flow, but you want to be organised. But again, it just shows that not just anybody can step into the role of a presenter. You know, that's where the confidence thing that you've been mentioning as well comes in.

Ed Nell 14:10

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think, I think confidence is really important. But you might also look at it as being relaxed at the same time, because you can go in, and some people are so tense, and you can just feel that. And it's almost it's uncomfortable, isn't it when you hear somebody who is so tense, and you don't want to be that person, but it's hard. And I would say prep because it's really important, but perform like it isn’t.

Sparky 14:37

Put that on a billboard or something. That's fantastic.

Ed Nell 14:43

Here's the thing, though. I mean, once you've done your prep and you're happy with your prep, you've already got that confidence going in so you can perform in a relaxed way in a confident way. Because, you know, look, I've got all the information if I lose my thread, I've got my bullet point here. able to get me back on track. I know it's pre-recorded because it's a podcast, so I can enjoy myself here. And pauses, not a problem. Take your time. That's important as well, I think taking your time and enjoying the experience because it is a podcast, any bits where you go, or maybe I've made a bit of a fool of myself there, well, you know, the guys at Sound Rebel, they can take that bit out. So, you're gonna still sound brilliant, which is brilliant. So, you've got nothing to worry about.

Ben Anderson 15:30

It's interesting, because I want to talk to you about storytelling. I know you're very big on storytelling, because with the prep, what you're basically doing there is collaborating the information, I want the audience to take this away from this episode for them to be able to take this away. These are the bits of information that I need to get across. But actually just having the information, yes, it gives you the confidence, but you've also got to know how to deliver the information, and is that where storytelling and the skills of traditional storytelling come in.

Ed Nell 16:02

I'd say storytelling is something you can very much learn, but some people are completely born with it. And no doubt, you've been to a party where you hear these incredible storyteller. So we're holding the room. And they're telling these brilliant stories, but they will do the techniques of storytelling naturally without having learned it. And they're just those people. They're just there. They're all the people that we want to be you know, they hold a room without thinking about it. They tell a hilarious, amazing stories where everyone's captivated and hanging on every word. But you can totally learn those techniques. And it's a great way to get your message across in its simplest form, it's beginning, middle, and end. And you might, when you're prepping, start with the end of that story, and work backwards and you go, okay, that's the end. That's the point I want to get across. It doesn't have to be funny. If it's information, if you're talking about piling, fairplay if you can get a joke out of piling, but probably it's not going to be funny. So you might go with that final point. And then you go, okay, how am I going to get that into the story? What, perhaps you're going to start with a headline or a question almost. And perhaps the end part is the answer that question, and then the middle bit, that's the journey, I suppose, isn't it of how you get to that end point. And you want to take people on that journey with you, and make them invested in what you're talking about. And a lot of that is about the language you use, in terms of just how you pitch it, I suppose, like we were talking about at the beginning, it you know, you will no doubt be an expert in your field and you could use loads of technical language, but in terms of your audience, is that going to resonate with them, or they're going to get a little bit lost? See that middle part of the story is making sure that they're going to be invested, and come along with you on the journey. So eventually, they get to that end part of the story. And they're excited to find out what the end part is what you're going to deliver to them. So that's a that's a great way to prep, it doesn't have to be the whole podcast, it could just be sections, and each section could have a little story where you're taking people on that journey, I guess.

Ben Anderson 18:08

So is the middle section, then, the most important bit? Is that where you want to spend most of your time?

Ed Nell 18:13

I think so because you could say almost the beginning and the end are quite informational, really. But the journey in terms of the colour that you give that story, the kind of, the theatre of the mind, you want them to feel it, see it, smell it, be able to touch it, almost every experience that you're talking about. But bear in mind, you're just using your voice and your language to do that, which is an incredibly powerful tool. And to me, that's what I love so much about audio is that just with your voice, and how you communicate to somebody, you can convey so many different feelings, you can make people cry, you can make people laugh, you can make them feel jubilant, you can make them feel angry, but all of that, and those tools are right at your disposal. And it's just about how you paint that picture in that middle bit, which is the meat of any piece of content is probably more important than the beginning in the end to a certain extent. And it's quite exciting about what you can achieve.

Sparky 19:12

I bear this in the back of my mind when presenting and doing storytelling – when I'm talking to the audience, like it's a sliding scale of speaking to someone who has no idea about the subject I'm talking about and someone who's a bit of an expert because there probably is both of those in your audience or they'll be listening to your podcast and if you slide that scale along like you might put in a bit of technical terms if it's piling you're talking about and assume that some people might know what that is, but you also then give the offering of a complete simple breakdown for people who might be hearing about that thing for the first time.

An example we've used on another podcast episode is an estate agent company did this to answer all questions to first time buyers, right. So you would assume most of those people to be novices and not know many technical terms. And I would try and keep it as basic and as simple as possible. But then if you were presenting to, you know, a stocks and shares podcast to a load of investors, you'd use more professional terms because you'd expect them to know that and it's just finding that sliding scale and being aware of those things before you open the mic that just helps your job and helps you feel more comfortable, which, as you said, is an absolute key point when presenting.

Ben Anderson 21:22

It's really interesting what you say about the different emotions that you can pull on depending on the content. We're producing a podcast at the moment with two actors, one of who was diagnosed with stage four, Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma when she was 38. A huge and obviously devastating moment in her life. She's now on the other side of it, which is wonderful. She's a qualified life coach. But she's telling her audience about her experiences and how it changed her viewpoint on life. But in those episodes, you've got the anger, as she's telling her story. And she's really angry that this happened to her. She's doing it with a best friend. And her best friend will remind her sometimes if something funny happened, that within this devastation this horrible, all-consuming thing, there was a funny moment and they're laughing together about it. But then five minutes later, she's back to getting chemo and she's crying.

Thinking about that. I suppose you can take the audience on it on a journey. And journeys are full of a range of emotions. With podcasting, yes, you you've got to be prepped, you've got to be confident. Yes, you've got to be flexible. But actually, it's all about being real, isn't it? It's about giving as much as you can of yourself to your audience. And yes, if your podcast is about geothermal energy, then I doubt there'll be tears, but you can still be real. If you've got a guest, and they're the experts, it's okay for you to not know everything you shouldn't feel like because you're the presenter, you should know everything about that particular topic. The likelihood is if you're asking the question, then your audience are probably asking that question, too. Listeners can hear when someone's reading a script, or if they're not being authentic. Being real is probably the number one thing for me. Ben's top tip for podcast presenting.

Sparky 23:12

Definitely. No doubt about that.

Ed Nell 23:21

Be Real, Be Real. One thing I was gonna say actually, as well, I was gonna lead to and we talked quite a lot about the audience and how you connect with that audience. And this is real 101 stuff in radio. I sometimes hear people on podcasts and also hear on Instagram stories quite a lot, people don't talk to one person. And that really grates on me when I hear it. And especially a podcast because quite often, I mean, you probably know yourself. If you're listening now, you're probably on your own. You're probably the only person in the room and someone going hey, you guys just wanted to say hi to you all out there. Like for me, I'm lost. You've lost me already. Because you're not talking to me. And you like you see that on Insta Stories that just wanted to jump on to see all you guys and say hi to everyone out there? Um, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not having that. I'm not having it.

Ben Anderson 24:29

Like I'm thoroughly enjoying today's chat, but I know, Ed that we're on a time limit. You've got to get off because you were telling me before we started recording that your youngest son is at nursery and they charge you a pound a minute for every minute that you're late. Is that the deal?

Ed Nell 24:47

Yeah, but that is the thing. And what I love about it is well it's really passive aggressive how they do it. So for every minute that I'm late, you get there. No one tells you off but you know you're late and they know you're late. No one says a word. They just send you an invoice at a later time. Oh, and the invoice pops through and it was like you were six minutes late here six pounds that you owe us. Oh, come on guys.

Sparky 25:06

I'd love to see the turnover of just the add on fees a year from the nurseries like they're probably making most of their money there.

Ed Nell 25:15

Oh, that's the Christmas party paid for easy. No worries.

Sparky 25:20

So okay, right. So, we've covered realness, we've covered like preparation and stuff. What else would you like to just cover off Ed before you go and prevent yourself getting fined?

Ed Nell 25:30

Yeah, I don't think I've got time to cover anything else.

Sparky 25:35

Performance, you were talking a bit about performance. So yeah, we've got emotion. Any other top tips from our expert? Whilst we've got you?

Ed Nell 25:43

Yeah, I mean, in terms of performance, I mean, like, we say that that prep thing is to give you security, so you feel confident and relaxed in your performance. And that is absolutely it. And I think there's a real tendency to rush your performance as well and go and just get it done. But take your time, and, and being engaged in your subject as well. Don't get rid of distractions when you're doing it. Because that can be the thing, can't it? You've got to be engaged. You've got to be in the moment when you're doing it. If you've got a guest, you want to listen to every single word that they're doing, and don't just reel off your questions, react to what they're saying. Be engaged, be interested. That's so important. You know, otherwise, why would someone be interested in you? If you're not engaged and interested in your subject?

Sparky 26:35

That's a strong point. I think that's a fantastic point to leave it on. Ed, thanks so much for joining us. Look, if you want to find out more about Ed, he is available. He's the media insider.

Ben Anderson 26:47

You can find out more at themediainsiders.co.uk That's themediainsiders.co.uk.

Sparky 26:52

Thank you so much for joining us on another episode of Pod Like A Pro.

Ed Nell 26:56

Thank you guys and thank you everyone out there who's listening really appreciate it.